Secret Satan - Completed !

[Chaosguy]

A spin on 'secret santa' for those familiar with that sort of holiday gift giving:

How about a game where the players each submit an avatar build into a pool then must each blindly choose from that pool to play a standard game with?

There would need to be a 7th person to sort the builds, something as simple as shuffling then letting the players pick a number from 1 through 6, then assigning that build (via e-mail?) to said player or something similar. ie. The referee would tell the player what their build was based on what they'd pulled from the pool and the player would create that avatar to play in the match.

Since no one would be likely to submit a super build that they'd only have a 1 in 6 chance of getting back, moderate & weak builds would be prevalent. Just like the questionable gifts one tends to get through this gift giving method. To that I'd add four stipulations-- the build can have no more than 1 unused point, charisma must be at least 1, no assigning the 'master administrator' buff (I don't think its useless as many in the community do per se, but I agree its just too high in build points for what it represents) and public objective can't be "sloth" (penalizes diplomacy too much).

At the end of the game each player or the referee will reveal what build the players had started with.

Any interest out there in this sort of challenge?

[Sord]

It is an interesting idea, but I feel like you'll need many more stipulations to get any reasonable builds. In a quick test, I spent all the points on Lord/Envy/Inspirational Leader/Infernal Warlord/PBTT with 0/0/0/0/1 stats. So bonuses are +loyalty to legions and +2 command rating. If you can vassal to someone and they win, you'll win instead, but at least one opponent will know that is a possibility, and really, I'd expect PBTT to be in nearly every build, so really it isn't going to do much good.

[Chaosguy]

Ah but that's the point, there are no reasonable builds-- how is that any less crappy than what you'd receive in return? Besides, remember that you have a 1 in 6 chance to get the very build you submit back-- its more likely than you'd anticipate so you'd basically look to create a hard build, but not one that was unuseable. If three people pick "Pride" for example-- they just gave themselves a 50% to get it back...

Still to mix it up, we could stipulate that at least one non-charisma had to have points in it. We could also take PBTT out, you make a good point there. I'd be for leaving Kingmaker in though. It would be unwise to pass that one out since it doubles someone's chances at a win... but you're free to do so if you feel you water down other useful things by giving that instead.

That's 6 rules for 6 fiends then , nice & tidy:
1) No more than one unused fiend point.
2) At least one point in charisma.
3) At least one point in a non-charisma power.
4) No 'master administrator' perk
5) No 'power behind the throne' perk.
6) Public Objective can not be "Sloth"

Standard map settings, with players to reveal the builds they submitted & got at the end of game.

[Fuu]

It's a nice concept, but it could mean spending a long time playing an avatar that is, despite the rules, very likely totally useless, against a bunch of other useless avatars. Which is fine if that's the whole idea. I guess you could alternatively each design (or get someone who isn't playing to design) six reasonably useful avatars for you within whatever criteria, and then you can pick them out one at a time and see who draws 'the short(est) straw'. Or maybe you could write a script to generate random avatars within whatever criteria ...

[Chaosguy]

Well, I think in this case based on the rules, each avatar is likely to wind up with one useful "out". That is, it becomes difficult not to provide at least one useful thing, and to the point, you'd want that just in case you get it back.

Take Sord's build from above, based on that I'd immediately be thinking-- swamp them with a larger army. Your command is up and your legions will do well on loyalty checks. Its not that hard to raise charisma from 1 to 2, just a matter of time, and from there to start buffing marital prowess. It gets even better since under the rules, he'd have to replace PBTT now with something more useful. plus a non-charisma stat. Is this a great build? No, but is it useable? Absolutely, especially against builds of similar strength.

Point here is-- everyone knows to play a 4 deceit/envy build, or not envy for the surprise factor, or a high charisma build, etc. The variables in the avatar set-ups have been reduced to just a few archetypes. This game offers both a way out of the same-old, and a challenge, for those who can think outside the box.

[Dropout55]

I like the idea too - I agree with Sords limitations though.

I think it can be refreshing to take an avatar you would never pick yourself and try to work with it - new strategies often arise that way!

[Matchstickman]

Is part of it suppose to be a mystery to the other players as to what you have been given? Is so, I would stipulate that the builds must all have the same Public Objective, otherwise you will (might) be able to tell who has what build very easily.

[TurinTuramba]

I don't want to play, but creating the most useless avatar ever sounds fun.
My suggestion: Lord/Pride/ cunning 2/cha 1/wickedness2 debauched/master archer/monumental vanity.

[Chaosguy]

I don't want to play, but creating the most useless avatar ever sounds fun.
My suggestion: Lord/Pride/ cunning 2/cha 1/wickedness2 debauched/master archer/monumental vanity.

You'd likely to have the strongest starting legion with that build as well as the ability to conduct level 2 rituals. Debauched hurts a bit, but the move(s) you make is likely to be more effective. You goal with that build-- "rush" a +2 PoP. Master Archer is arguably the best of the 3 legions boosts & you've got level 2 rituals to start out with to help you weaken the PoP, it may take two or three turns but you'll get it. After that you settle into upping your charisma and pushing for a 2nd order slot.

The thing to understand is that no one is going to be handed a 'turtle' build. Taking that PoP and sitting back while the doubled prestige rolls in means you're going to be very much in the running to win it. No one is going to be sitting on a master build waiting to make their move. Yes, you'll need a bit of luck on the tribute rolls to get one of your level 2's up to 4 for another order slot, but you're not worse off than anyone else.

This is sort of case in point-- you gave me what you considered to be your "worst" build, and yet it seems very workable in the context of this scenario to me.

[Chaosguy]

Is part of it suppose to be a mystery to the other players as to what you have been given? Is so, I would stipulate that the builds must all have the same Public Objective, otherwise you will (might) be able to tell who has what build very easily.

Hmmm, an interesting point. I'd rather test it in game though-- its REALLY unlikley that anyone is going to go Lust or Gluttony (already we've got FAR more variety than the current standard games just from that) and Sloth is currently out. That means people are left picking Wrath (now possibly even doable) Greed (perhaps the most likely to succeed since there won't be any level 3/4 deceit fiends) Pride (this is very obviously going to be a low scoring game-- you really want to hand someone a free 10 prestige at game's end?) or Envy.

With just 4 public Objects likely to come up its also likely we'll see doubles on PO's. And to the real heart of the matter, you'll already have a very good chance at guessing who has your build by examining the starting legions. And its likely based on how they play their early moves you'd know who had the stats you gave them within the first ten turns regardless of whether or not PO's are the same.

The only change to public objectives I'd think may be appropriate would be swapping out Sloth for Envy as the illegal PO. Envy goes form being the 2nd most achieveable PO to nigh-impossible in this scenario. That is, you can surely build up your deceit over time, but in a standard length game with low starting resources its seriously unlikely you'd have the time to get to the point where you'd be able to steal a relic. While handing Sloth to someone could be a major handicap, it can at least be completed for the 20 ponts. (Furthermore if anyone gets handed Wrath, the Sloth guys will likely be thrust into the diplomatic side of the game on the defensive).