Mini Expansion - Rectification

Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Sord » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:01 am

In case you don't follow Vic's blog regularly, he made a post about an upcoming mini-expansion. :D
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Dissonance » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:57 am

Yeah... I noticed that and I have to say that it looks good :D. I like the idea of curses and the inclusion the "Assertion of Weakness" diplomatic state will certainly liven up diplomacy and add another level of worry in terms of accepting insults. Out of curiousity, will the Lake of Fire count as a lava canton?

Also, I was wondering whether the "fonts of Darkness/Hellfire/etc" idea is making it into the mini-expansion or not - the almost requirement to have high diabolism still bothers me somewhat...
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby manveruppd » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:24 am

Really looking forward to this! :) I wouldn't say the game has become stale, since playing with different people doing different things ensures no two games are the same, but a shake-up of the rules will definitely make stuff more exciting!

And yeah, I'm also hoping the "fonts" idea that Vic mentioned makes it in. There are ways to deal with Charisma-focussed builds, but they're still very powerful, and they encourage turtling, which makes the game boring. Being able to gain tribute by taking PoPs and attaching a font to it instead would make the game more dynamic and encourage more vendettas for territory.

The curses idea seems interesting, we did need more ways to directly affect an opponent's prestige. So far if someone had an insurmountable lead the only real options were to frame them for excommunication, or to make a Pandemonium grab yourself. (Blood feuds took too long.) But I'm concerned that they're manuscripts, cause then they'll be tied to Charisma again. It means charisma-turtles get an extra way to win - they no longer have to just build up their attributes as fast as possible and excommunicate themselves, they can now play the prestige game too. And if the "fonts" don't make it in to balance out the power of prestige builds that might be way too unbalancing.
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Sord » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:49 pm

If I understand correctly, you get curse manuscripts by possessing a relic, not from demanding tribute or the bazaar, so charisma might not be a factor (other than you need to buy the relic in the first place). The sample relic also boosted a stat, so could be a worthwhile purchase even ignoring the curse aspect.
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Fuu » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:27 am

I hope Swamp Walk actually makes it into the game this time! :P
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Chaosguy » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:44 am

Also hope there's some love for the victory options.

I may be way off target, but it seems that when Vic designed SI, he based it around prestige games, with the Usurper role there to keep those who'd fallen behind interested. As with many games, when the players took it on, they did something the designer didn't expect at the time or didn't think would be as popular as it is: which is disregard both those options and go for the "tag pandemonium to get excommunicated, then kill everyone without bothering with Pandemonium"-- and not as a last minute late game strat, but as the main plan from the get-go. The idea of +50% prestige to combat & rituals against an usurper has been floated elsewhere in the forums to somewhat offset this (it would pay more for the remaining players, epsecially those playing the prestige game, to focus more quickly & effectively against such opponents).

In any case though it seems like the prestige game has taken a backseat in MP. And this may be perfectly fine. However, so many of the rules and game conditions revolve around the prestige game, that one would think it should either get something to make it more viable, or more should be added in the usruper role.
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Sen » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:58 am

Give a one turn option to buy out of being Framed for Excommuication, Charisma points/perks should cost +50% Avatar points to what they do now, give all players 3 order slots at the start of the game.

All that'll happen is that Prestige players will Demand twice, move once while the turtle will Demand three times, but since the 3rd Demand is much less valuable the two groups should be much closer together. It would give the chance of a coalition of prestige players of being able to successfully oppose a runaway turtle.
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Fuu » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:56 am

There has been a new post at http://www.crypticcomet.com/blog/ which mentions the terraforming element in the expansion ... it sounds fun and very powerful - I wonder how easy or hard it will be to isolate people completely...

---

Curse of Diabolism – chance of receiving a manuscript any time any player requests tribute. Curse targets opponent directly and drains prestige points from player any time he requests tribute for a set duration


I wonder, is the percentage chance of receiving a Curse of Diabolism manuscript lower than for the others? I would guess that it's extremely rare that a turn would go by without someone demanding tribute, whereas many turns could pass without legion combats, destruction rituals etc. which are required for the other curse types...

---

Finally I know that Vic isn't too anal about balancing the game elements, which is a good thing. Still, many have pointed out over the past months that there are perks/objectives which rarely if ever get chosen because they aren't so cost-effective. Given the opportunity of this update, if any 'balancing' is to take place, probably the easiest way would be only to reduce costs rather than increase them, which would avoid the problem of currently valid avatar builds becoming too expensive. For instance, Master Archer (9) is significantly better than Master of The Sword (8) or Sorcerer (7); perhaps dropping the costs to 9/7/5 would make them more competitive, without invalidating existing builds.
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Sen » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:46 am

Fuu wrote:Finally I know that Vic isn't too anal about balancing the game elements, which is a good thing. Still, many have pointed out over the past months that there are perks/objectives which rarely if ever get chosen because they aren't so cost-effective. Given the opportunity of this update, if any 'balancing' is to take place, probably the easiest way would be only to reduce costs rather than increase them, which would avoid the problem of currently valid avatar builds becoming too expensive. For instance, Master Archer (9) is significantly better than Master of The Sword (8) or Sorcerer (7); perhaps dropping the costs to 9/7/5 would make them more competitive, without invalidating existing builds.


Yeah, sure, balance is often the enemy of variety when strategies are made more equal in power by being made more similar. However the near complete subversion of the Prestige victory as soon as Active Prestige players no longer outnumber Economy-Military players 2:1 (Kingmakers, Champion duelists, Gimmick builds, players with an unlucky game beginning are discounted and don't tip the scales either way) means that much of the game content is irrelevent. Similarly bad are the spoiler players who just try to excommunicate everyone in the final turns.

I've been hoping that Assertion of Weakness would be a diplomatic option that allows you to quickly grab a turtles 6 cantons surrounding their stronghold prior to claiming Blood Feud but I wouldn't be surprised if there were limitations on this.
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Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Marble Mouth » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:29 pm

Regarding Curse of Diabolism. I think maybe you're looking for balance where there is none. For example, Faust's Contract is already objectively better than Key of Solomon. If the only reason to decrease Curse of Diabolism's percentage chance is to prevent it being "too good," then I doubt Vic decreased it.

Regarding balance in general. I like your idea about Master Archer et al. I'm not sure if I'm actually really against invalidating existing builds. Every change made to a game has butterfly effects, so any change could invalidate a previously viable strategy. I have no doubt that at least some strategies from the current game will need at least some tinkering to be played in Rectification. I like that facet of expansions. It ensures that they deliver new experiences. I do like my games to be balanced in some sense. I think Vic is counting on player imposed balance. When someone climbs above the rest of the heap, he makes himself a target so that the others knock him back down. The player ignoring prestige altogether is plotting to usurp the throne, so everyone hoping to win on prestige has to deal with that. A player known to have won other matches will develop a reputation as the guy to watch out for.

I do still wish that more of the in-game options were more balanced against eachother. I think balance is key to variety. For example, I have never taken Master Administrator. I never will, at its current cost. It's an option that I will simply never explore, because I think it is unbalanced. I think the game would include more variety if Master Administrator had its cost slashed, so that more different options could be viable. Right now it is in the list of perks, but it does not contribute to my game experience at all. I read someone complaining at the lack of low-point-value/low-penalty negative perks. I think maybe an opposed "Careless Administrator" perk could be an option in that niche. If you took it, you'd only get a point or two and you'd use up a perk slot. And you'd think "So what? When was the last time I ran out of attachment slots on PoP's?" And then many games it wouldn't harm you, but when it did, you would scream from the rooftops "WHY DID I THINK I NEEDED ONE GOD FORSAKEN FIEND POINT SO BADLY THAT I TOOK CARELESS ADMINISTRATOR?" But I digress. Low-penalty negative perks run the same risk as Gluttony and Lust. If the penalty is low enough, they find their way into too many builds, reducing overall variety.

BTW, does Vic have a standard policy for requesting beta test participation? I don't want to spam up his inbox, but I didn't see any details in the blog post.
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