King maker

Post your Tips, Tricks and Hints on how to advance your House's claim on the Infernal Throne

Re: King maker

Postby Spartacus » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:07 pm

If there is a Kingmaker it'd seem to make more sense to go after Pandemonium - the only surefire way to win, overriding Kingmaker and Power Behind the Throne. Kingmakers aren't likely to be in any position to stop the Usurper with the 20 fiend points they spent - deceit rituals notwithstanding. The only thing Kingmakers need to do is a.) keep their horse in the lead, b.) survive until the end of the game, c.) control Pandemonium whether by controlling all adjacent hexes + deceit rituals or by destroying it with Oblivion.
Spartacus
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: King maker

Postby Indricotherium » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:57 pm

Strangely enough I drew and played the Reveal Kingmaker event in my first all AI game. I was in the lead, felt comfortable spending the prestige and it set my mind to rest that I wasn't paving the way for someone else. In my mind, that's the scenario it's there for.
Indricotherium
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:24 pm

Re: King maker

Postby John Mc » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:10 pm

Indricotherium wrote:Strangely enough I drew and played the Reveal Kingmaker event in my first all AI game. I was in the lead, felt comfortable spending the prestige and it set my mind to rest that I wasn't paving the way for someone else. In my mind, that's the scenario it's there for.



I agree, although I don't think the AI ever uses Kingmaker.
John Mc
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:30 pm

Re: King maker

Postby Broceliande » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:58 am

A question about Kingmaker :
Is it possible to win because of Kingmaker if you are a Blood vassal (of another player, or even of your king) ?
How does it work ?
Broceliande
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: King maker

Postby frost_maze » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:50 pm

Broceliande wrote:A question about Kingmaker :
Is it possible to win because of Kingmaker if you are a Blood vassal (of another player, or even of your king) ?
How does it work ?

I would think that you'd still win if your blood lord lost but your kingmaker won.
And if your blood lord wins and your kingmaker loses, then you win too.

If your blood lord *is* your kingmaker... then I think it's fairly obvious.

John Mc wrote:I agree, although I don't think the AI ever uses Kingmaker.

Now there's a thought.... Next update, one AI opponent who uses Kingmaker. That would be interesting. :P (And it would also cause a lot of headaches about how to get that AI to not try to win but try to make their kingmaker target win)
frost_maze
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: King maker

Postby potatoedoughnut » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:17 pm

If you're a blood vassal you can still win via kingmaker if the selected person wins. However if you are a blood vassal of someone not your target (why?) you only get 2nd as per normal blood vassal rules.

There are no AIs with Kingmaker, and honestly I'd rather see work on a variety of different things than work up a Kingmaker AI.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
potatoedoughnut
 
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:31 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: King maker

Postby vasiln » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:10 am

Spartacus wrote:If there is a Kingmaker it'd seem to make more sense to go after Pandemonium - the only surefire way to win, overriding Kingmaker and Power Behind the Throne. Kingmakers aren't likely to be in any position to stop the Usurper with the 20 fiend points they spent - deceit rituals notwithstanding. The only thing Kingmakers need to do is a.) keep their horse in the lead, b.) survive until the end of the game, c.) control Pandemonium whether by controlling all adjacent hexes + deceit rituals or by destroying it with Oblivion.


It's easy to think of Kingmakers as weak-- but by the end game, the orders and resources they may have saved by not caring as much about prestige or vendettas leaves them as powerful as anyone else. To even worry about Kingmakers, you first have to be on top of the prestige game, which means a lot of orders spent managing vendettas. By that time, the Kingmaker is most certainly in as good of a position to stop you as any other player.

It's not so easy to keep your horse in the lead. There are a lot of complicating factors. But for the person who, in a game they're winning, hypothesizes that they are that horse? Blood feud is a difficult thing to force, even when a player does care about prestige. A writ of rescindment doesn't arrive at one's door every day. The potential of Kingmakers reduces every game to a military game. (Which is how it should be, even though I didn't realize it for a long time. Prestige is just a game we play along the way.)
vasiln
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:09 am

Re: King maker

Postby Spartacus » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:11 am

vasiln wrote:
Spartacus wrote:If there is a Kingmaker it'd seem to make more sense to go after Pandemonium - the only surefire way to win, overriding Kingmaker and Power Behind the Throne. Kingmakers aren't likely to be in any position to stop the Usurper with the 20 fiend points they spent - deceit rituals notwithstanding. The only thing Kingmakers need to do is a.) keep their horse in the lead, b.) survive until the end of the game, c.) control Pandemonium whether by controlling all adjacent hexes + deceit rituals or by destroying it with Oblivion.


It's easy to think of Kingmakers as weak-- but by the end game, the orders and resources they may have saved by not caring as much about prestige or vendettas leaves them as powerful as anyone else. To even worry about Kingmakers, you first have to be on top of the prestige game, which means a lot of orders spent managing vendettas. By that time, the Kingmaker is most certainly in as good of a position to stop you as any other player.

It's not so easy to keep your horse in the lead. There are a lot of complicating factors. But for the person who, in a game they're winning, hypothesizes that they are that horse? Blood feud is a difficult thing to force, even when a player does care about prestige. A writ of rescindment doesn't arrive at one's door every day. The potential of Kingmakers reduces every game to a military game. (Which is how it should be, even though I didn't realize it for a long time. Prestige is just a game we play along the way.)

Keep in mind I wrote that when the game was released :)

I agree with everything you say - in the end, might makes right, and you must maintain a decent military to win. But I'll leave it at decent - it doesn't matter how many legions you have at the end of the day, you can lose them all in defense of Pandemonium, but once that final conclave token is drawn, it's over. Prestige is the most important game, but it's still second fiddle to surviving, and to survive you need a military.

"Scheming" Diplomatic Actions would help kingmakers along in keeping their horse in the lead :)
Spartacus
 
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: King maker

Postby vasiln » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:58 pm

I wasn't very clear, I'm afraid. I don't have an opinion like, "Kingmakers are too powerful," or "Kingmakers are too weak," because this isn't a perfectly fair game anyways-- it's about adjusting, about doing the best you can, which is appropriate, as Lucifer, too, never had the chance to beat the Tyrant-- but this doesn't seem like a thread at that low level of discussion either.

Still, I feel a little misunderstood. Without Kingmakers, a game played by good players should erupt in excommunicate tension at the end. And so you need to be able to defend yourself-- as you say, you need a decent military, but Prestige is the final say. But with Kingmakers, it's different. Decent, at that point, is no longer enough. If you want to win, and suspect you've been Made, then after all that work gathering Prestige, you still have to defeat EVERY OTHER PLAYER militarily. It's not enough to defend your own stronghold, as it would be sans Kingmakers. You have to hold Pandemonium, maybe after wiping every other player out. Thanks to a tiny, first-turn decision by a stranger, it's you against the world.

This makes it sounds, despite how I introduced this, as if I think Kingmakers are too powerful. They're not, because of how early they pick their King; they have little on which to base this choice, and their own efforts can not make an impact large enough to make irrelevant their King's competence. (It might be nice if their actions could make a larger effect, but this would have to be balanced against the effect on their target, and the effect on bystanders; I believe I've been made in one game I'm playing, and yet I don't want to tell anyone, because they would still focus on me before the Kingmaker, and because I want to continue to reap the benefits of my Kingmaker's guardianship, until I am capable of destroying every other player.) I don't think Kingmakers win more often than other players, and I think the perk is priced well. That doesn't change the fact that a chosen King has to have an incredible degree of foresight, skill, and luck to actually win. Kingmakers aren't really imbalanced. But their targets? Kingmakers win sometimes, just like everybody else. But for the target of a Kingmaker, prestige means LITERALLY NOTHING, and they are hampered, less by the erection of this nearly insurmountable obstacle to what you rightly call the "final say," than by the fact that they don't even know that prestige means nothing-- and there is no way for them to discover that prestige means nothing, because they can never discover a Kingmaker's target.

It's not trivial to confidently identify kingmakers. But it is trivial, in 1.05, to rule them out. In the games where they can be ruled out, prestige is king. Now, for me, I play this game to win. I am tempted by mechanisms that suggest recognition of second place, but, in the end, I choose to identify with the subject matter. What is superior to serving in Heaven is doubtlessly superior to serving in Hell. Traditional Christian legends of Hell are romantic myths about potting it, for win or for terrible loss, a theme I can get behind, and a theme I want to support with my play. So in games where Kingmakers cannot be ruled out-- well, those are games in which prestige doesn't matter, and I may as well not capture a single PoP, nor level a single insult, because, in the end, I can never trust Prestige to net me the victory. I can only trust it to earn me the attention and enmity of my peers. (Well, okay, the PoPs still help to level up my legions.)
vasiln
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:09 am

Re: King maker

Postby timus » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:06 pm

vasiln wrote: It's not trivial to confidently identify kingmakers. But it is trivial, in 1.05, to rule them out. In the games where they can be ruled out, prestige is king. Now, for me, I play this game to win. I am tempted by mechanisms that suggest recognition of second place, but, in the end, I choose to identify with the subject matter. What is superior to serving in Heaven is doubtlessly superior to serving in Hell. Traditional Christian legends of Hell are romantic myths about potting it, for win or for terrible loss, a theme I can get behind, and a theme I want to support with my play. So in games where Kingmakers cannot be ruled out-- well, those are games in which prestige doesn't matter, and I may as well not capture a single PoP, nor level a single insult, because, in the end, I can never trust Prestige to net me the victory. I can only trust it to earn me the attention and enmity of my peers. (Well, okay, the PoPs still help to level up my legions.)



I've written it sometime ago: the sheer power of kingmaker is that by taking it you are denying your target the right to win the game conveniently. You just decide: this guy won't win no matter what (unless he usurp the throne). It is wicked if you think about it.

In theory, every normal length game have close to 100% chance of someone taking "Reveal kingmakers" event card. However, I've yet to see one played. The problem is it takes some 10 or 20 prestige to pull it out, and only a clear prestige leader has reasons to play it.

However, I think you are wrong: suspecting a kingmaker in game does not mean that prestige is nothing. If it is a normal (not a beginner) six-player game, it is usually quite tense and everyone is suspicious. No one like a clear prestige leader, but a guy who is just sitting and clearly not participating in a prestige-race game usually draws as much attention. In one of my current games I just saw players ganged up on unlucky guy (not a prestige leader) and stripped him off all his forces just for behaving suspiciously: not caring that much for prestige and buying a puzzle cube and a flying unit (this one was a last drop).

It takes time for people to adapt to excommunication mechanics, but as they do it would become more and more difficult to win via usurping.
timus
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:35 pm

PreviousNext

Return to The Strategikon of Bezel

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron