King maker

Post your Tips, Tricks and Hints on how to advance your House's claim on the Infernal Throne

King maker

Postby timus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:24 am

From what I can see, Kingmaker is quite difficult to counter. You don't have to make suspicious actions with it unlike Power behind the throne perk, so it can't be unclosed by ones behaviour. The only means for detecting it is either probing with Prophecy 4 or rare Unveil King Makers event. Even if it is detected, it is still impossible to discover the actual target. Also Unveil King Makers event does not remove the perk from the discovered player unlike "Neutralize Schemers" event. The only means to ensure Kingmaker does not win by perk is excommunicating him (which require a lot of luck) or destroying him, which is also quite difficult in short and normal length games.

Does anyone have an experience of winning a live game with this perk?

BTW, you can take both Kingmaker and Power behind the throne perk (at expense of taking one negative perk) thus preventing two players from winning at once.
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Re: King maker

Postby Spartacus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:33 am

Currently in a game with Kingmaker, I'll let you know how it turns out. I think it's completely possible to keep an enemy guessing by taking -1 Movement points, looking like a turtling build, but you still need to know how to press others in order to keep on top.
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Re: King maker

Postby timus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:48 am

If you take Lord, Gluttony/Lust, King maker, Charisma 3 and Obscure, you would still have 7 Points to invest in either rank, some stat (cunning?) or a perk (Iron tower of Mind or Prince of lies come in mind). This will allow you to look like any normal non-wrath build. You could even pretend and play actively. In fact, you can even win by prestige with this if the cards are good (usually everyone is after the leader). The difficulty in fact is making the correct target choice and then doing your best to "make" it. I think it is entirely possible with some investment in deceit, as this way you can secretly help your target player by hurting his rivals.

I've yet to try it in PBEM however.
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Re: King maker

Postby Spartacus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:02 am

Kingmaker is completely possible with a PUG, but I believe it's better played with a group you've played with once or twice, so you get a feel for who's who. With rituals and a bit of luck in getting a Praetor you could manage on 1 Move-space per turn, especially if you can block Pandemonium; I prefer Lust over Gluttony because it ensures that there'll be a PoP without any buffs to it, removing random variables that may screw you up. I'd play it with the goal of being a pain in the ass, the third-fourth place player as it was.

Also, Unnatural Prescience would be nice if you could somehow scrape together the last point, most likely through grabbing Slothful and Obscure. Imagine using Great Unholy Crusade and Close the Bazaar at the same time, Legion combat would be frozen in place. Same goes for stopping rituals, Fissure + Angelic Host Incursion, Dearth of Tribute + Taxes - the whole game would be frozen while the chances to pick a token rises. You'd be stuck with 7 points again after buying it to drop in rank or stats, a minimum of Baron would be nice to prevent getting steamrolled by legions.
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Re: King maker

Postby timus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:18 am

Spartacus wrote:I think it's completely possible to keep an enemy guessing by taking -1 Movement points, looking like a turtling build, but you still need to know how to press others in order to keep on top.


Generally taking "slothful" perk is like having a big neon sign attached to you "I've invested all my points into something big". Unlike "Debauched" and "Obscure" it is outright visible to everyone just by checking the personal guard legion stats. With it you are pretty much guaranteed to be constantly probed with Dark Augury and be the center of attention. You would also likely be the top threat in the beginning of the game because you are either too powerfull (3 starting order slots would be the first thought) or have some clear vulnerability (low or no wrath), or both. And between the guy with public "envy" goal and you, everyone would pick you as a threat any time just because of uncertainity.

It is a bit safer to take Debauched as a second negative perk. You can leave with just one order slot early in the game, although it is hard.

Unnatural Prescience would be nice if you could somehow scrape together the last point, most likely through grabbing Slothful and Obscure.


Unless I missunderstood you, it is impossible as you can't take more than 3 perks at once, so you would have to take Cha 2.
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Re: King maker

Postby Spartacus » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:44 pm

My bad on the perks, I was miscounting there.

I'd still prefer Slothful over Debauched because it limits one axis of gameplay - although you know they've got 8 points invested in something, they're mostly out of the running for PoP and territory, which leaves Praetors, Rituals and "alternative" wins. But as long as you keep a low head in the beginning of the game suspicion should blow over quickly because there are others that need more attention than that one guy that let himself get hemmed in because he took slothful.

I'm guessing it comes down to people played with, as I've had different experiences than you - others left the Slothful player alone because he had trapped himself in a hole and couldn't get out through diplomacy or combat. Slothful is something that can be more or less ignored in a planned build, because it affects one axis of the game, Debauched is a different story and I generally wouldn't touch it unless I'm picking up an extra order slot to balance it out.
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Re: King maker

Postby seekerofknowledge » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:37 pm

Why is the "unveil kingmaker" event rare? Shouldn't it come up once per game on average? Once exposed you will be a target for everyone since they won't know if they are the target or not.
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Re: King maker

Postby John Mc » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:16 pm

First off, why play "Unveil Kingmaker"? It costs 20 Prestige to play. What are the chances that: A) The person who draws "Unveil Kingmaker" wins by Prestige, B) the same person has a Kingmaker associated with them. Sure if you're winning by 200 Prestige and you draw that card you should play it, but usually you're trying too hard to win to bother spending the Order/Prestige.

Even if you Unveil a Kingmaker what does that change? The person who's winning might try to destroy them I suppose. Or someone might excommunicate them, but everyone who isn't winning currently is better off ignoring it and trying to get to the top. You'll find out who they picked when it's all over.
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Re: King maker

Postby timus » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:36 pm

John Mc wrote:First off, why play "Unveil Kingmaker"? It costs 20 Prestige to play. What are the chances that: A) The person who draws "Unveil Kingmaker" wins by Prestige, B) the same person has a Kingmaker associated with them. Sure if you're winning by 200 Prestige and you draw that card you should play it, but usually you're trying too hard to win to bother spending the Order/Prestige.

Even if you Unveil a Kingmaker what does that change? The person who's winning might try to destroy them I suppose. Or someone might excommunicate them, but everyone who isn't winning currently is better off ignoring it and trying to get to the top. You'll find out who they picked when it's all over.


Spot on. This and the following: even if the player with kingmaker will be "a target for everyone" - so what? It is not that he needs a high prestige, lots of territory or PoPs anyway. You should prevent his target to win, and how would you do that if it is unknown? It is impossible to just "destroy" him - you should follow the protocols thus it could take from to 20 or 30 turns straight just to get to that Blood Feud state you want and you don't have this time usually (I've yet to see epic length PBEM). Last but not least, lots of prestige is won in vendettas and legion combat so it is a perfect opportunity for King maker to actually help his target to win! Just get into vendetta with correct person and succumb.
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Re: King maker

Postby seekerofknowledge » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:47 pm

Interesting, I didnt know it cost 20 prestige to play, that will indeed keep it from coming into play. thanks.
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