Avatar Builds

Post your Tips, Tricks and Hints on how to advance your House's claim on the Infernal Throne

Avatar Builds

Postby LordPerkinzle » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:40 pm

What kind of avatar builds are you guys doing? I don't have anything solid down yet but I tend to keep my avatar high in charisma with at least 1 perk and either prince or duke status. Objective: Gluttony, usually.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby twentyeighth » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:23 pm

To be honest I keep choosing the Lust public objective because (1) it's neat, particularly with Balphegor's sexy picture, and (2) it usually encourages others to spend some turn orders in attempt to block you.

I'm still heavy on Charisma, though I'd like to hear from other players with off-the-road builds. Of course Infernal Cardinal and Devoted Minions are popular perks, but I'd also like to take Inspirational Leader since it works with my naturally high Charisma -- particularly if Deceit builds gain in prowess and popularity.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby LordPerkinzle » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:00 am

The only perks I've tried so far are War Master, Collector of Curiosities, and Bully. Bully worked out pretty well for me, as I tend to hurl insults quite a bit. Curiosities is good if you start with a Charisma of 3, but if you are starting with 1 or 2, it's probably not worth it. War Master is also good if you attack stuff left and right, but I think it isn't quite as powerful as the other two. Right now my nobility is Prince, 1 pt. in Martial, 1 pt. in Cunning, 1 pt. in Intellect, 1 pt. in Wickedness, and 2 in Charisma. Gluttony is still my objective. I had initially played a few games with my Charisma 3, but it ate up so many of my points in creation that I turned it down a notch. Starting with 2 is doable, but getting started is significantly slower compared with 3.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby twentyeighth » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:10 pm

LordPerkinzle wrote:The only perks I've tried so far are War Master, Collector of Curiosities, and Bully. Bully worked out pretty well for me, as I tend to hurl insults quite a bit. Curiosities is good if you start with a Charisma of 3, but if you are starting with 1 or 2, it's probably not worth it. War Master is also good if you attack stuff left and right, but I think it isn't quite as powerful as the other two. Right now my nobility is Prince, 1 pt. in Martial, 1 pt. in Cunning, 1 pt. in Intellect, 1 pt. in Wickedness, and 2 in Charisma. Gluttony is still my objective. I had initially played a few games with my Charisma 3, but it ate up so many of my points in creation that I turned it down a notch. Starting with 2 is doable, but getting started is significantly slower compared with 3.


Yeah, I think two charisma is very reasonable -- particularly if you select a high rank. I too put a point in Intellect just to have that extra ritual slot. I generally prefer builds that lend themselves to flexible play, not something pre-determined from the get-go.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby tzeentch_2001 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:32 pm

Some questions from complete NOOB in multi.

1. Is it worth to create a militaristic AV? Ex.
a) Wrath 4,
b) Wrath 3 + Archer Master
c) Wrath 4 + Archer Master + Obscure?

2. Deceit? How high?
a) Cunning 4
b) Con 3 + Prince of Lies and Cha 2 + something else 2
c) some other combination?

3) Cashmaster. High Charisma?
a) Cha 4
b) Cha 3 + Infernal Cardinal + Cun or Wrath 2? (seems to be better than 3a)

4) In which case is it worth to take some higher rank than Lord? Seems to work only for Insults. Am I right?

What do you think? I have 0 experience in multiplayer, so every tips is welcome?
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby Fuu » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:20 pm

tzeentch_2001 wrote:Some questions from complete NOOB in multi.

1. Is it worth to create a militaristic AV? Ex.
a) Wrath 4,
b) Wrath 3 + Archer Master
c) Wrath 4 + Archer Master + Obscure?

2. Deceit? How high?
a) Cunning 4
b) Con 3 + Prince of Lies and Cha 2 + something else 2
c) some other combination?

3) Cashmaster. High Charisma?
a) Cha 4
b) Cha 3 + Infernal Cardinal + Cun or Wrath 2? (seems to be better than 3a)

4) In which case is it worth to take some higher rank than Lord? Seems to work only for Insults. Am I right?

What do you think? I have 0 experience in multiplayer, so every tips is welcome?


In general the danger of having an attribute at 4 to begin with is that it costs so much you will likely be weak in some other areas. For instance since the strength of your starting legion = 10 + (sum of non-zero attributes) - (number of zero attributes), you may have a weak legion. Depending on your strategy it may still be worth it though - if the attribute you start with at 4 is Cunning/Intellect/Wickedness, you can take advantage of the extra order at game's start. Still, it is likely that your Charisma would be very low so it is questionable what benefit you can get. Still, it is playable; for example if you go Cunning 4 at game's start, you can loot vaults immediately and if your own economy is weak, you can make up for it by stealing good cards from others. It's risky and arguably worse than having a good economy yourself, but it can be done.

Also in my view there is a lot to be said for flexible avatars. If you don't pump all your avatar points into one set strategy, you can adapt to circumstances more easily, which is valuable if the map doesn't turn out as you expected, or events conspire against your game plan. This is why I personally like avatars with 1 in most or all attributes: you may not be great at any one thing to begin with, but with the points you save you can take a juicier perk or rank or just start with a nicer economy, and develop in whichever direction the game takes you. Still, I will try and say something about your questions...

1) These avatars can work but I wouldn't start with Mar 4; it doesn't give you anything significant over Mar 3, and most importantly doesn't give you an extra order slot. You would be better off I think starting with Mar 2 or 3 and Master Archer for a build like this; that would allow you to put some points into your economy, which will be needed to further boost your Martial (for better leverage of Master Archer) and other stats (for an extra order slot or so).

2) Unlike Martial, having Deceit at 4 to begin with gives you significant strengths (extra order slot, looting, stealing praetors and artifacts). It is a gamble to put so many points into one thing, but I've seen someone do this to reasonable effect. Prince of lies is a good perk too.

3) Cha 4 is of course better than Cha 3 but not by as much as Cha 3 is better than Cha 2. The jump from Cha 2 to Cha 3 allows you to keep an extra card with each demand tribute/manuscripts, and also allows you to demand manuscripts as well as tribute. Even if you don't care much for manuscripts, it is more beneficial if you are going to make two resource demands in a turn to do one of manuscripts and one of tribute, than two of tribute. The jump from Cha 3 to Cha 4 doesn't allow you to keep an extra card or give you any new ability (but you do get to choose from a larger number of cards, and I think it slightly increases your tribute roll).

NOTE: it was also shown that Cha 3 + Obscure is better than Cha 2, for the same amount of avatar points. Mostly, I think, because of the big jump in strength between Cha 2 and 3 offsetting the handicap from Obscure. If you can live with having Obscure, which is in my opinion easily the least harmful of the negative cost perks, try it rather than sticking with Cha 2.

4) Being of Lord rank can be a serious pain. It is very hard to start a vendetta on your own terms as a Lord: your demands are weak and so you are easily paid off, and while your insults are good, they allow other people to respond with a vendetta on their terms rather than yours. Still, with the weakness of your demands there is decent synergy with Lord rank and the Bully perk. As a Lord you also have a disadvantage in several other minor areas, for example if there is a tied bid in the bazaar, rank is a tiebreaker; in the case of the event where you vote to excommunicate someone, your rank = the number of votes you get; your stronghold is of a lower level as a Lord and so can hold fewer things. Still, for all its disadvantages, you get extra avatar points to spend elsewhere, if you think it is worth it. I usually take the boring route of compromising and being a Marquis ;p
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby Dreamteam » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:23 am

twentyeighth wrote:I'm still heavy on Charisma, though I'd like to hear from other players with off-the-road builds.


Here are my builds for strong end-game avatars:

Strategy: Overwhelming Combat Strength
Lord of Hell
Gluttony or Lust (doesn't really matter, just want the points)
M 1 C 0 I 0 W 0 Cha 2
Master Archer, Master of the Sword, Paranoid
3 points left over to put where you want, or alternatively nerf the Paranoid trait and use either Cha 3 or Sorceror.

Strategy: Rituals and Resistance
Marquis of Hell
Gluttony or Lust (doesn't really matter, just want the points)
M 0 C 0 I 0 W 1 Cha 2
Saturated Ichor, Paranoid, Toughness
Alternatively nerf the Marquis rank and use W 0 Cha 3

My reasoning for low rank is that you don't want to play the prestige game with these avatars, so you don't really care about holding onto lots of PoP's or being able to demand multiple tribute cards. Rather you concentrate on pushing your borders as close to Pandemonium as you can, and then leveling-up and growing into strong Usurpers in preparation for an an end-game fight to the death. Since we are shooting for Usurpation, the public objective is irrelevant.

The first build, when Wrath is maxed out, makes for uber-powerful legions (even when using green-horns straight from the bazzar), especially when neighboring legions support one another. The second build offers enhanced defence against the most annoying ritual types (Deceit and Destruction), as well as a decent buff for casting any of your own rituals. Both builds make it harder for anyone to loot your vault or bribe your legions/praetors.

Strategy: Fast Defensive Buildup
Lord of Hell
Gluttony or Lust (doesn't really matter, just want the points)
M 1 C 1 I 1 W 4 Cha 2
Slothful, Obscure, Harbinger

With this build, you will be getting 3 order slots on turn 1, which compensates for only having Cha 2. Your starting legion should be decent enough to grab a PoP close to your stronghold as you capitalize on that extra order slot. But other than that concentrate on bringing in tribute. If anyone decides to make demands, refuse and then hammer their legions with your +8 Destruction rituals. Or make demands of your own, and if they refuse hammer their legions some more with Destruction to generate prestige.
Last edited by Dreamteam on Tue May 24, 2011 6:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby Dreamteam » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:22 am

I haven't really tried the following strategy yet in multiplayer, but it just might be crazy enough to take your opponents by surprise on small maps: an early-game rush.
Strategy: Early game Usurper Rush
Marquis of Hell
Gluttony or Lust (totally irrelevant, because we are going to excommunicate ourselves sometime soon after turn 11 :twisted: )
M 1 C 1 I 1 W 4 Cha 1
Debauched, Obscure, Sorceror

Strategy: Early game Usurper Rush
Lord of Hell
Gluttony or Lust (totally irrelevant )
M3 C 1 I 0 W 1 Cha 1
Master of the Sword, Obscure, Fiendish energy

With these two builds, you want to stay put for the first ten turns or so, bringing in as much tribute as you can. Then you go to the bazzar and buy 2 legions and whatever Praetors or artifacts you can afford. Position yourself within striking distance of the Stronghold of your first victim, and then cast IA on Pandemonium and let the Usurper rush begin! Choosing Master Archer, Master of the Sword, or Sorceror as a trait is a good way to leverage your points, since all your legions, PoPs and Stronghold get the bonus. You need to quickly dominate your opponents and orchestrate your attacks such that leveling up your units compensates for no longer being able to go to the bazzar.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby h4ngedm4n » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:57 am

Versus computer, I have fun playing this rather single-minded avatar:

Marquis (6)
Lust (-3)

Fiendish Energy (13)
Debauched (-10)
Obscure (-8)

Martial 3 / Cunning 2 / Intellect 2 / Wickedness 2 / Charisma 0

You get a super starting legion that moves at 3, once I got a "move +1" option on level-up, totaling 4! The idea of this avatar is to always spend your 1 order on moving the legion or picking a fight with making the biggest demands you can. Rush cap as many PoP early and then work down the threat list, having the 1 legion run everywhere to cover all of your bases. Eventually, it rakes in so much prestige, that it doesn't matter I keep failing vendettas (too hard with 1 legion) and single combats (no resources to get praetor). Of course it would be silly to try this versus players, but the AI doesn't seem to react well to having a super legion running around.

--

Related to avatar builds, does anyone have a good one that starts focuses in prophecy, with Seer and maybe Unnatural Prescience perks? I'm really not seeing how prophecy can win games. All those rituals have some upkeep and I can't see how spending resources keeping them running is worth it.
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Re: Avatar Builds

Postby Acheron143 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:26 pm

Has anyone had any success with a gluttony Baron, who carries Paranoid and Inspirational Leader, pair with obscure and a 1/2/1/1/3 attritbute set. The idea is to stop anyone from working steals against you or your stuff? Especially if you ran the Demonic Premonitions ritual all the time. Also the 2 I suppose could go in any of the attributes.

Also I will admit that my flawed understanding of the game and a lack of playing when I wasn't on my lap top hindered me from beating even the AI for years. Which finally was resolved by Mr Floppy and Rock Paper Shotgun's blog games.
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