Infernal Juggernaut: overpowered ritual?

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Infernal Juggernaut: overpowered ritual?

Postby zak2 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:21 am

It has become a common sentiment in a lot of my games (albeit mostly because the same player keeps spawning next to pandemonium and enjoys turtling) that usurping is too easy to achieve, and to hard to defend against. Sure, if the turtle is poked all game, and someone is keeping up with the usurper's attributes, its easier to stop him. Usually though, the usurper is not getting planar locked, or being looted every turn, or being the recipient of many demands. Probably because people feel he could retaliate viciously and there are softer, easier targets for them to go after.

Prestige has become something of a joke. The players who go after prestige are usually the ones who stand little to no chance of winning the game. Praetor battles are pointless, and the only use I've found for challenging someone to single combat was to psych them out when they demanding tribute. Two of the three games I played that went to prestige, the winning player was way more powerful than everyone else in the game. One was able to cast infernal juggernaut, the other was able to steal legions, and blow them up with infernal afflictions in 1-2 hits. The third game, I won by prestige but I have to admit I only did so because 2 players attacked pandemonium without being able to defend their stronghold (premature usurpation), and I was able to kill my neighbor using a writ of rescindment.

I feel like prestige would be a much more viable option for winning the game if the ritual infernal juggernaut was more expensive. Since it is not, I am going to discuss banning it in all of my future games, possibly some current ones as well. The boost it gives a legion is too powerful, and lasts for too long. I welcome any debate people wish to engage in on this subject.
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Re: Infernal Juggernaut: overpowered ritual?

Postby Sord » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:29 pm

Can't say that I've ever seen Juggernaut as overpowered. It requires rank 6 in martial and can be simply countered by level 1 and 2 rituals (infernal affliction and strategic confusion, although you probably want more ranks for the increased effect).

I think the real problems you're having are "Is being able to win via capturing pandemonium overpowered?" and "Is turtling overpowered?" Those are very old questions and I'm not sure I've seen a good answer. Vic did do a survey at one point to try and identify if pandemonium wins were too predominant (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1198 - I think the result is: no, they aren't).

My personal experience is that if there is only one turtle in a game, it will probably win, if there is a second turtle, they'll likely both lose. However, it does depend a lot on what the other players are doing and there is a lot of rock-paper-scissors going on. Turtle's can be killed by deceit builds, manuscript builds, and legion rush builds. There are also some artifacts/relics (The Orb of Oblivion and The Puzzle Cube that make taking Pandemonium a risky/difficult/impossible task. - the wiki for Solium Infernum
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