Secret Satan - Completed !

[Chaosguy]

Tsk tsk.... there's been some mild interest but still no takers? No one feels like playing outside their comfort area of high deceit or high charisma builds, eh?

The irony is that what I'm proposing here likely creates a fairly level playing field, more so than the standard games anyhow. It becomes less "if I can just get "X" to happen, I know this build I've played a dozens times will win it!" to "How do I turn this random situation to an advantage?". Newer players will be in the same boat as veterans, since no one will be working with their "best, tested strategy". Those who know how to turn a weak situation to their advantage would be the ones to succeed.

No one is willing to pick up the gauntlet? Is thinking outside the box really that intimidating?

I just played a game as a 'Pride" demon and for all intents & purposes placed second-- that's right I spent points on Pride in a MP game and missed winning by the narrowest of margins due to excomm. Furthermore it was my 1st MP game and my main adversary the whole time was a Lust/Deceit fiend. I played unconventionally and was more than competitive. In my 2nd MP game just finishing I played with a build that never had an attribute over level 2. My perks were "Infernal Cardinal" and "Seer" with the aim to find out what other people were doing and be flexible in my response, once again it came down to a close finish with me just missing spoiling the excomm leader's efforts at 14/15 tokens.

Is flexibility not something interesting to the players here? I'm a bit diappointed.

[Matchstickman]

I'll throw my horns in the ring.

Do you want an avatar from just the players or is it free to anyone blundering by?

[Sord]

First, it is not intimidating, it just sounds slow. Like a game where you will need to spend an extra 5-10 turns getting the stats you should have started with (in addition to all the turns you'd normally spend getting them to where you want), and then in the endgame nobody has any special abilities you need to worry about, so other than events, it will be fairly predictable (or a least less unpredictable than a normal game). Plus your starting legion is likely to be nearly worthless, so unless you are lucky enough to have a really weak pop near your starting spot, you can't even play a militaristic role until later.

However, I have been pondering the bigger idea. If we go back to the original idea of 'gifting' and reinforce the idea that you are giving someone a build to use, not trying to win the game before it even starts, then I think it could work. To emphasize that, I'd put UPPER limits on how powerful a build you can make (rather than lower limits) and emphasize that the build should be interesting to play.

Something like:
- Create the most interesting avatar you can with a clear play style.
- Max charisma is 2.
- All other attributes must start at 3 or less.
- No negative perks to get more points to spend. Stick with the initial lot.
- No negative public objectives to get more points to spend. You can pick them if they really are the best fit for the build, but the extra 3 points must left over.
- If the judge deems your build to be 'common', it will be sent back for you to try again.
- If the judge deems your build to be intentionally weak (rather than interesting), it will be "randomly" selected as yours to play so you can demonstrate its hidden power.

[Chaosguy]

Hey! That's the (evil) spirit, Matchstick!

Just the avatar # for now. The build you're going to put in the hat you keep secret. We'll need one extra person to 'hold the hat' and redistribute the builds back to the people playing. (Should be random, but ideally one person gets the build they submit back during the shuffle).

May as well do it with the latest beta version of the expansion, unless there's a big desire to try this 'old school'.

Sord-- you're saying you think by randomizing things it makes the game more predictable? Not sure I follow the logic. Or perhaps you don't follow the intention here-- yes-- the end game will be different than the typical end game. You can expect a lot more diplomacy right from the get-go and boiling over at the end. When you typed "getting the stats you shouldve started with" it shows two things-- first you believe that there are only a handful of "correct" builds and also that you're not interested in the idea of trying something different. You're put off because in your mind you'd be trying to take a "bad build" and slowly turn it into one of the standard archtypes. Thats not what we're going for here.

The idea of passing around "builds with a clear playstyle" isnt the intent. All that does is hamper a person who receives a build theyre not familiar with when compared to someone who gets the same-old same-old. The builds under this system will be weaker than a deceit 4 / charisma 4 build certainly, but they'll all be on par. I was given two examples earlier in this thread of what people thought were 'weak builds' and showed how both could be easily played in this context. Your idea of "everybody do what they normally would do, then get up and move one chair to the left" is an interesting idea but not what I'm going for here.

Since you're interested, but not sold on the idea Sord, how about you be our 'hat holding guy' ? I'd like to actually get in and play this concept myself, so we need one guy to collect the builds the re-submit them to the players. It would be appreciated/helpful.

[Chaosguy]

Restating the rules, so no one gets confused (note rule #6 has been adjusted):

1) No more than one unused fiend point.
2) At least one point in charisma.
3) At least one point in a non-charisma power.
4) No 'master administrator' perk
5) No 'power behind the throne' perk.
6) Public Objective can not be "Envy"

The idea is, with everyone playing by these rules, there isn't a build you can be handed that's unwinnable, especially nto compared to the other builds AND you'll be forced to play in a way that's more creative than you're used in in a standard game. (And note, since you may very well get your own build back, it pays to give the build you create an 'angle' in your mind of something it could possibly do to get ahead, but youre not obligated to do so).

Standard map settings, with players to reveal the builds they submitted & got at the end of game.

[Chaosguy]

I have tentatives in MatchsitckMan & Jukka, plus myself is 3.

Fuu, MarbleMouth-- either of you guys up for trying this? Sord, are you cool with shuffling the builds (and confirming they each only have 0 or 1 fiend point unspent) for us?

Would still need one more if anyone else is interested as well. Dropout55? SupaDupa?

Holler back with your avatar #'s people & confirm you're in

[Marble Mouth]

Ok. I'm down. I followed both sets of rules because that's what I felt like doing, but stuck more closely to Sord's theme. So whether you all choose to submit wacky, unusual, or underpowered avatars, be aware that there's at least one out there that was built with a direction in mind.

I want avatar #7 this time.

I'm not sure who I would need to PM my avatar to, if we have any one yet.

[Fuu]

Thanks but I'm gonna wait until either Return to Heck, or Paradise Rerectified, finishes before starting a new game. Three at once was too much for me now I have a proper job - I only jumped in on Paradise Rerectified because I wanted to see the beta version! But I can help out with checking avatars or something if you need.

[Sord]

I am fine being the hat guy, or Fuu can be. And I personally think 3 games is about the right number, preferably one starting up, one in the middle, and one in the final turns. Five games is too many though, and I don't know what I was thinking...

[Moth Bones]

I'll give this a shot.