Mini Expansion - Rectification

Re: Mini Expansion - Rectification

Postby Sen » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:11 pm

I agree with your analysis though i think you overstate the issue with turtles. Or more specifically its not turtling as a strat, but how it tends to play out. MP player game 4 turtles, 2 prestige-- who has the advantage? As you yourself note, a turtles worst enemy is another turtle. Its conclave token 9, and you're playing as a turtle and now have everything you need to pounce on the prestige leader and take your place in front-- will you? No, you probably won't as it just makes you the target for the next turtle. And yet if you don't, the prestige players' odds get better with every turn... Excomming them doesn't really buy you any advantage versus the other turtles either. This leads to the issue I've been concerned about this whole thread-- the "going rogue" strat. Tag Pandemonium just for the excomm, then kill em all. Its the best way for a turtle in a 3+ turtle game to be sure of victory. The advantage here though is to the prestige players, they gain a perverse immunity by being the obvious target, so it seems more that which ever way the balance swings, its the minority strat that has the advantage.

I regard capturing Pandemonium and Going Rogue as pretty much the same thing, and Turtling as a strategy that is near-obligated to go for this Victory. A bunch of things that synergize with each other.

I also don't regard the Prestige players as likely survivors of the 12/15 Turtlepocalypse. Flying units and Juggernaut make it easier to kill than not to kill and offense is most certainly the best defense. Being a neighbour is reason enough.

Sen wrote:Had this happen plenty and been on each side of the role.

As Vic was looking for rough data feedback, could you give a guess as to what the % breakdown has been for victory in your case, Sen? I mentinoed this thread to Saggersin in our game and he also feels it leans towards a 50/50 split, hopefully he'll come on the post his experience more specifically as well. I'm curious myself what players experience, & right now the majority opinion seems to back Vic's gut instinct based on the data he has.

I gave my feedback on the games I could reliably remember but at least a third of my games, mostly the latter ones, were with groups of players interested in playing the prestige game with a hard ban on framing and a polite request to not go too crazy on Demand Tribute from turn 1. These were the sort of games and players where there was at least one Kingmaker, sometimes two. I don't think they're great games to base balancing decisions off of, though they still saw their fair share of self-excoms and kills.

But if I wasn't playing with House Rules (shudder) then I'd always pick a Hyper-Turtle, a Cryptic Turtle that looks like a prestige player, or one of several Anti-Turtle builds I've sketched out but never tested. I'd enter every game with the intention of Excom killing unless the map generator handed me an easy prestige victory. 50/50 seems about right but theres a muddy area in the middle with accidental victories of both types awarded to opportunistic survivors of Turtlepocalypses.

I don't mind the whole Going Rogue business except that its more reliable than a Prestige victory on account of the reliable returns on turtling. I think its a proximate cause of the Prestige game being undermined, not the ultimate cause.
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