Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby Alamar » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:51 am

Unrelated to any game I'm playing at the minute, I was idly wondering the following:

Say you have Player A with Kingmaker and Player B with PBTT, with A choosing B as his pawn at the start of the game. The game ends with Player A winning a prestige victory, with Player B as his Blood Vassal. Does B's PBTT make him the victor? Does PBTT put B on the throne, with Kingmaker then removing him and putting A back in place? Who wins?

(I know the manual says that Kingmaker trumps PBTT, but I presume this is more intended for the situation where Player C wins with Player B as his vassal, and the conflict is between A's Kingmaker on C and B's PBTT on C, in which case A wins. That would imply that the game checks the Kingmaker condition, *then* the PBTT, in which case in the above situation the PBTT wins.)
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby Squigles » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:46 pm

Unrelated suuuuuure... I bet you just don't want anyone from the game coming on this forum and seeing this thread and putting 2 and 2 together 8-) .

Sorry I can't help, just came in here to harass :D.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby vasiln » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:39 pm

I believe this has been answered before, and I think the answer was that Kingmaker only works if king-made wins by prestige. (PBTT counts as a manipulation victory, not a prestige victory.) So A would win the prestige victory, which would then trigger B's PBTT victory-- but A's Kingmaker condition wouldn't trigger. So, in this case, B would win.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby Scoteh » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:28 pm

More to the point, if a kingmaker won a prestige victory the universe would implode, and there would be no1 left to be proclaimed the victor.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby GoneToHell » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:39 pm

Does anyone ever bother taking Power Behind the Throne in a multiplayer game? I can't imagine ever wanting to take the risk accepted a blood vassal unless you were going for an usurper win, in which case Power Behind the Throne is worthless.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby Nashua » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:20 am

Power Behind the Throne can be an interesting choice for games were players communicate often through email as a diplomatic medium. This because PBT requires some craftiness to put in effect and email communications allow you to deceive more easily than actions in the game.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby GoneToHell » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:20 am

But who would actually risk taking on a blood vassal if they were going for a prestige win? The small chance that someone so far behind that the option even comes up actually helping you against the serious contenders versus the automatic loss if they have PBtT? You're only safe if you go for an usurp win, and if that's the only circumstance where accepting blood vassals makes sense, then picking PBtT is pointless since it doesn't count then.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby timus » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:43 am

GoneToHell wrote:But who would actually risk taking on a blood vassal if they were going for a prestige win? The small chance that someone so far behind that the option even comes up actually helping you against the serious contenders versus the automatic loss if they have PBtT? You're only safe if you go for an usurp win, and if that's the only circumstance where accepting blood vassals makes sense, then picking PBtT is pointless since it doesn't count then.


It's not that straightforward situation as you think. It's not that someone just approach you and ask to be your blood vassal out of the blue. That would indeed be very suspicious. In a couple of cases I saw it was actually reverse. You find a vulnerable player, press him hard and then present him with a choice: either he accepts the role of a blood vassal or you destroy him or otherwise make sure he take a last place. It is also possible that he will ask another player for protection from you in that case, offering a vassalage. It's the actual situation that matters.
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Re: Kingmaker and Power Behind The Throne conundrum

Postby frost_maze » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:14 pm

Or, alternatively, if you're in second place and you definitely won't be making first place by prestige any time soon and someone approaches you asking to be vassal, it then becomes a question of definitely coming in second (refusing vassalage) or a question of maybe coming second (accepting the vassal). If the vassal doesn't have PbtT, then you've boosted yourself into first place. If he does... well, you were going to come second anyway, so it doesn't matter.
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